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[Music]

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you

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I got married got my BIA made a degree

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and headed out for the west coast with

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my first job offer which was working on

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the Navajo program at North American

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Aviation the Navajo program was the

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first supersonic cruise missile idea at

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the time it got canceled because it was

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having problems but while I was there I

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was working on the design of the F model

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for the wind tunnel in fact the big was

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going to be tested at L home up here so

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I got some experience working you know

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with design and that sort of thing but I

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was fresh out of college and had about a

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year experience when my fight got my

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final orders to report for duty well

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along the way Korea was burning hot and

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I decided you know I was my commission

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was a combat engineer well I'm not sure

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that I was well-suited to be a combat

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engineer all right we built a few

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bridges at night under the Starlight and

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that sort of thing it was terrible work

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you know very much manual and that sort

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of thing so I figured you know I really

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have some experience with missiles and

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is there anything the army has in that

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area and so I did put an application in

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for a transfer

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of my MOS well they transferred me the

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Ordnance had sent me the Ordnance school

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in Maryland and when I got my orders and

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I was telling a gentleman earlier about

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this when I got my orders it was in a in

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order Torian where you were you were

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sitting in the audience and you were

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called by name upon the stage and the

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major who was leading it would give you

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your your official orders as to where

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you were going and so all my friends

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that I'm in class with me it was Watson

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to Korea

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on and on they went through about 20

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names and he gets to mind all of them

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going to Korea and he gets to my name he

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says Maria to Korea yeah and then he

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said no wait a minute no you going to

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Huntsville Alabama that's how I found

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out I was going to the south somewhere I

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had never heard of Huntsville apparently

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he had neither okay I'm so high

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watered down here to general tough toy

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who was head of the commander of the

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Arsenal here and he said well you're an

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engineer you know we have a German group

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here on the front brown and they need

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mechanical engineers and I was a

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mechanical engineer is why don't you go

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over there and report to him and see if

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he could find something for you to do in

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the mechanical engineering area I said

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you know I have sir and hope I went we

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sort of had an indication on our way

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driving to Huntsville that things were

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going to be radically different I went

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from a city of seven and a half million

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to a city of about twelve and a half

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million with the surrounding areas in

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Los Angeles and then I was assigned to

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to this place and my wife was busy

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looking at the triple-a books and lo and

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behold she found Huntsville Alabama

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population 16500 okay my mouth dropped

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wide open I hope we met there were more

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people in my neighborhood that I lived

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in than that okay

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and so that was kind of a shock we

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weren't expecting it to be that small an

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area but when we got here it was very

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very impressive from the standpoint that

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it was country but it had mountains it

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had water and it was it was a very

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pretty place and in fact as we drove

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over on highway 72 over the mountains

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and we arrived at late at night

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all the city lights were on and it was

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just like you were looking at a at a

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fairyland picked you it was really

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pretty okay then we parked that the only

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restaurant that was open and we saw the

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junebug Hospital ie and then we realized

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we were in a different community and we

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rented the only house that was available

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for rent in Huntsville at the time on

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Holmes Street and that's where we we

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housed for a little while I couldn't get

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on post at that time they didn't have

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facilities for the military here so

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that's how I got here and and that's

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what the first impression it was not a

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good one

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and it it was difficult before it became

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a good one because we had some pretty

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difficult times

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at that time huntsville was a little bit

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more racist than it is today and it was

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back in the era where they had separate

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facilities for the blacks and whites and

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try to explain that to a little girl who

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want to have drink and Isolda no you

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can't drink there you have to drink it

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this other one she wanted to know how

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come why you know how do you explained

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that to a child and it was he was tough

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making that that change but as we stayed

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here and grew the community grew and we

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brought in people from all over the

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world not just the United States and so

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it became a much more progressive and

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non racist environment although I'm sure

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there were people that was so very

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racist there still are today you know

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well I think what was going on here with

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so many scientific and engineering

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projects of eventually putting a man on

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the moon is what I finally led to but he

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was basically helping the army develop

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their intermediate range ballistic

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missile program so we had the Redstone

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with a 200 mile range followed by the

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Jupiter program which had about a

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fifteen hundred mile range so things

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were developing rapidly here and more

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and more progressive educated people

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were coming into the area and the the

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whole place changed in flavor and of

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course then we had the gentleman running

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for president none of us were happy with

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at the time or most of us were not happy

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with at the time and that was a

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difficult time and that was a time when

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as I said I'm trying to explain to my

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daughter why she couldn't drink from

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this fountain you have to drink from the

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other one it's hard to imagine those

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days now you know women huh there

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weren't any women in the engineering

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field at that time and now we have one

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who may become the center director at

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Marshall Space Flight Center I hope she

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does it was a different time the women

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in that in those days you know just

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didn't have the rights at the beginning

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to have now I had two gentlemen in my

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project office at the time and this was

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of the f1 engine project office and one

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wasn't a Muslim and the other one was a

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Jewish guy and they were they were sat

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right next to each other and they

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developed a very good relationship

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between the two of them and they would

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really needle each other in fact the

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Jewish guy said to the Muslim guy

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look you're not marriage at 30 years old

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why don't you go find yourself a woman

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okay so we had a number of conversations

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like that that ran around the office but

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they got to be great friends and one

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Christmas for instance I came into the

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office and it was a glass pane entry

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into my office and they had written on

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the thing Merry Christmas in English

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followed by being written in Hebrew

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by a Muslim language alright and I

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didn't know what they all said that

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they've told me later and I thought it

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was a great idea and we decided to take

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a picture of it and we sent it to NASA

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headquarters you know there was the

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first relationships that were developing

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because of the space program that was

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starting to develop and the people who

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had the brains to work on that and it

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was very very interesting to see how

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that worked it had very little time to

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do anything else except worked on

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problems that were developing people

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problems as well as technical problems

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you know and in fact that people problem

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I just mentioned how do you get these

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two opposing religions sitting next to

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each other working the similar kinds of

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problems they had to work together

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because they were worrying about the

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finances and where we spending the money

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at the wrong rate or we're gonna be in

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heavy overruns and that sort of thing so

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they were mutually working this thing

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together and in fact I love it because

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the Jewish guy reminded the Muslim guy

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he forgot to pray he owe him he praying

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okay because he used to pray in the

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office every day but they were so

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occupied that he forgot and this Jewish

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my first jobs involved working with

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these missiles first a redstone and then

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the Jupiter missile on the Redstone I

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had an opportunity to to do some T DT dy

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work but back up to New York because the

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contractor who was working on the

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servomechanisms of the redstone was a

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Long Island company and they were having

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troubles with them and so I was pulled

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out of where I first went and that was

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into the heat transfer area and that

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sort of thing was more of the analytical

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world well

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von Braun's deputy could see me in this

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office and he found out that I was from

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New York so he approached me he said do

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you think you might be interested in

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doing some liaison work with the project

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office with this company in Long Island

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City and I think oh yeah try it it

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sounded good that job made me more

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visible to top management around the

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center including von Braun because I

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gave some presentations now and then and

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and but I was not happy it was not my

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field it was not propulsion it was

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servomechanisms okay I knew knew nothing

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about several mechanisms but I would sit

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down with a contract and find out where

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the problems were and what they were

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doing about them and that sort of thing

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so it was more of a project management

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involvement rather than an engineering

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involvement things went fairly well

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there and I spent most of my career as a

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second lieutenant doing that kind of

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work and then of course the famous

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general took over and we became a BMA

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army ballistic missile agency and I feel

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you know I'd be carrying his suitcase as

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soon as a second lieutenant well I got

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promoted to my first lieutenant ship and

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he kept me going in the engineering

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world I guess I had some exposure to von

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Braun strictly because I had

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presentations I had to give plus I had

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an immediate supervisor who had a lot of

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contact with

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Brown so I had some exposure there not

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much but enough that one Brown knew me

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by name in fact when we reported Ford

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active duty they were having a special

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reunion and my wife and I got invited to

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the reunion and I was sitting right at

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the head table with von Braun as a

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second lieutenant yeah so he was

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impressive from that standpoint he

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didn't feel like he was the leader of

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the singing you couldn't talk to him you

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know he was very very approachable so we

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had a good relationship and then along

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came the space program to go to the moon

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and my immediate boss was head of the

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propulsion project areas and so he

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needed a number of people in key project

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positions and he had very few to choose

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from and von Braun had a point at that

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00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:04,840
part in our career that said you know

275
00:12:09,510 --> 00:12:07,690
this place is full of Germans running

276
00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:09,520
everything he said we're not going to be

277
00:12:13,830 --> 00:12:10,770
around very long

278
00:12:16,980 --> 00:12:13,840
okay and if this thing is ever to

279
00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:16,990
succeed we need some smart American kids

280
00:12:22,470 --> 00:12:19,450
that we can train and put in key

281
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:22,480
positions at the center here and so he

282
00:12:26,340 --> 00:12:24,970
was pushing that very strongly and so I

283
00:12:29,070 --> 00:12:26,350
happened to come along at the right time

284
00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:29,080
and I guess he had seen me a little bit

285
00:12:33,570 --> 00:12:31,510
and so he approved the fact that well

286
00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:33,580
they needed a project manager for this

287
00:12:37,860 --> 00:12:36,160
big development called the f1 engine and

288
00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:37,870
he was willing to take a chance mainly

289
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:41,920
because my immediate supervisor gave him

290
00:12:45,540 --> 00:12:43,570
the recommendation he gave

291
00:12:47,490 --> 00:12:45,550
recommendation for me to head up the

292
00:12:49,770 --> 00:12:47,500
project of the f1 engine development and

293
00:12:52,710 --> 00:12:49,780
but Drummond got the one for the j2

294
00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:52,720
engine ok and we both you know we were

295
00:12:57,960 --> 00:12:55,570
in our 20s still I was 28 years old and

296
00:13:01,980 --> 00:12:57,970
I was given this project to manage that

297
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:01,990
had a 1 billion dollar funding program

298
00:13:06,990 --> 00:13:04,210
associated with it part of it was for

299
00:13:09,150 --> 00:13:07,000
facilities but nevertheless I had a 1

300
00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:09,160
billion dollar budget I was 28 years old

301
00:13:13,850 --> 00:13:10,110
ok

302
00:13:19,100 --> 00:13:16,790
well the biggest problem of all that

303
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:19,110
came about in that program was a problem

304
00:13:23,810 --> 00:13:21,330
called combustion and stability at the

305
00:13:26,690 --> 00:13:23,820
time not much was known about it we were

306
00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:26,700
hit with it fairly consistently once we

307
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:29,910
got to the system's level testing and

308
00:13:34,250 --> 00:13:31,770
what combustion instability isn't I tell

309
00:13:37,220 --> 00:13:34,260
people that's a highfalutin term you

310
00:13:38,510 --> 00:13:37,230
know but what it is is give them an

311
00:13:40,460 --> 00:13:38,520
example which probably isn't very

312
00:13:42,380 --> 00:13:40,470
accurate but it gives you the idea

313
00:13:44,690 --> 00:13:42,390
anyway and that is if you're in a room a

314
00:13:47,060 --> 00:13:44,700
dark room with a single candle light

315
00:13:49,220 --> 00:13:47,070
candle lit all right and there's no

316
00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:49,230
motion of there no people moving around

317
00:13:54,050 --> 00:13:51,120
the doors are closed and that sort of

318
00:13:56,630 --> 00:13:54,060
thing the heat system is off you would

319
00:13:59,840 --> 00:13:56,640
expect the flame to remain very

320
00:14:00,530 --> 00:13:59,850
symmetrical but it doesn't it flips back

321
00:14:02,540 --> 00:14:00,540
and forth

322
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:02,550
well that's a form of instability

323
00:14:08,210 --> 00:14:04,890
combustion instability because what

324
00:14:10,190 --> 00:14:08,220
happens is the flame sees a little more

325
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:10,200
oxygen on the right side that it does on

326
00:14:15,050 --> 00:14:12,450
the left so it burns hotter and it kicks

327
00:14:16,940 --> 00:14:15,060
the flame of a-- and now the part that's

328
00:14:19,130 --> 00:14:16,950
overseas more oxygen than the part that

329
00:14:21,470 --> 00:14:19,140
had just left and so it kicks it back

330
00:14:24,110 --> 00:14:21,480
well that oscillation goes on and that's

331
00:14:26,750 --> 00:14:24,120
an instability all right well but with a

332
00:14:29,090 --> 00:14:26,760
candle it goes on maybe five or six

333
00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:29,100
times a minute or five or six times a

334
00:14:35,210 --> 00:14:31,920
second right well that phenomena occurs

335
00:14:37,460 --> 00:14:35,220
in the rocket engine of the f1 except it

336
00:14:40,130 --> 00:14:37,470
doesn't oscillate at five or six times a

337
00:14:43,190 --> 00:14:40,140
second it oscillates at 2,000 times a

338
00:14:44,810 --> 00:14:43,200
second and picture that and it doesn't

339
00:14:48,260 --> 00:14:44,820
just oscillate back and forth but it

340
00:14:51,050 --> 00:14:48,270
goes back and around this sorta way so

341
00:14:53,330 --> 00:14:51,060
it was highly destructive and it was

342
00:14:54,710 --> 00:14:53,340
definitely a program stopper and it was

343
00:14:58,370 --> 00:14:54,720
the biggest problem I ever had in my

344
00:15:00,260 --> 00:14:58,380
entire career and the only way we would

345
00:15:02,630 --> 00:15:00,270
find ourselves out of it is that you

346
00:15:04,940 --> 00:15:02,640
know we need to go find out where

347
00:15:09,230 --> 00:15:04,950
expertise might be in the country in

348
00:15:12,490 --> 00:15:09,240
this area so we put together an ad hoc

349
00:15:15,650 --> 00:15:12,500
team which consisted of a professor from

350
00:15:18,980 --> 00:15:15,660
Princeton University who was in a field

351
00:15:21,620 --> 00:15:18,990
of combustion luigi via croco yeah so we

352
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:21,630
put him on this team we put an engineer

353
00:15:27,090 --> 00:15:24,570
or two from Marshall on the team in fact

354
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:27,100
the head of the team was a Marshall

355
00:15:30,090 --> 00:15:29,530
employee who's now deceased jerry

356
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:30,100
thompson

357
00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:34,330
and we went to Rocketdyne because they

358
00:15:39,810 --> 00:15:36,160
were the prime contract at that time and

359
00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:39,820
we gave them the lead from a contractor

360
00:15:43,260 --> 00:15:41,710
point-of-view we needed someone who

361
00:15:45,150 --> 00:15:43,270
could direct the efforts of the

362
00:15:47,550 --> 00:15:45,160
contractor without having to go through

363
00:15:50,460 --> 00:15:47,560
their top management so we got a pretty

364
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:50,470
high smart guide to work that his name

365
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:53,050
was Paul Caston holes and we had someone

366
00:15:56,820 --> 00:15:55,570
from the Lewis Research Center and we

367
00:16:00,600 --> 00:15:56,830
had a couple of others in fact we even

368
00:16:03,740 --> 00:16:00,610
had a man from the competing contractor

369
00:16:07,230 --> 00:16:03,750
for that f1 engine development Aerojet

370
00:16:10,110 --> 00:16:07,240
we got one of their top people in it so

371
00:16:12,810 --> 00:16:10,120
we had this team of about 10 15 would

372
00:16:15,180 --> 00:16:12,820
which represented the best brains that

373
00:16:18,300 --> 00:16:15,190
we had I gave him a budget of up to 40

374
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:18,310
million dollars right 40 million dollars

375
00:16:21,870 --> 00:16:20,170
to solve that problem because if we

376
00:16:24,060 --> 00:16:21,880
didn't solve it we would not have gone

377
00:16:26,940 --> 00:16:24,070
to the moon it was impossible it was

378
00:16:28,620 --> 00:16:26,950
that much of a of a risk and Ron Brown

379
00:16:30,540 --> 00:16:28,630
gave me complete support during that

380
00:16:33,780 --> 00:16:30,550
whole phase and we had some tough times

381
00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:33,790
who blew a lot of hardware apart but it

382
00:16:38,250 --> 00:16:35,710
was interesting how they finally

383
00:16:40,620 --> 00:16:38,260
developed a solution to this thing they

384
00:16:42,390 --> 00:16:40,630
never fully understood the combustion we

385
00:16:44,430 --> 00:16:42,400
didn't have computers in those days you

386
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:44,440
know they were just starting to come

387
00:16:48,660 --> 00:16:46,090
online and they were basically for

388
00:16:50,420 --> 00:16:48,670
payroll purposes you know you had a car

389
00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:50,430
that she punched in and punched out

390
00:16:55,260 --> 00:16:52,510
computers had whirring around we had

391
00:16:58,320 --> 00:16:55,270
slide rules and and even pocket

392
00:17:00,960 --> 00:16:58,330
calculators were barely coming on to be

393
00:17:02,790 --> 00:17:00,970
existing in our programs we had a couple

394
00:17:05,220 --> 00:17:02,800
of smart guys on that committee we put

395
00:17:07,020 --> 00:17:05,230
together one of them asked the question

396
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:07,030
and I wasn't in the meeting to find out

397
00:17:11,100 --> 00:17:09,010
which one said that but he says how come

398
00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:11,110
the v-2 didn't have combustion

399
00:17:13,530 --> 00:17:11,890
instability

400
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:13,540
you know von braun's group developed the

401
00:17:17,370 --> 00:17:15,760
v2 in Germany and no time at all and

402
00:17:19,950 --> 00:17:17,380
they didn't have combustion instability

403
00:17:22,530 --> 00:17:19,960
well lo and behold they had different

404
00:17:26,550 --> 00:17:22,540
propellant okay and then if you look at

405
00:17:28,890 --> 00:17:26,560
the design of the v2 engine it's a semi

406
00:17:31,530 --> 00:17:28,900
sphere all right and there are pockets

407
00:17:34,860 --> 00:17:31,540
of little rocket engines in that semi

408
00:17:36,330 --> 00:17:34,870
felis fear and they burn and then they

409
00:17:38,610 --> 00:17:36,340
interact with each other and then the

410
00:17:38,990 --> 00:17:38,620
exhaust comes out the tail end of the

411
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:39,000
rocket

412
00:17:45,529 --> 00:17:41,850
well the f1 engine had a flat plate

413
00:17:48,260 --> 00:17:45,539
injector where we mixed oxidizer and and

414
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:48,270
fuel and it was not the fuel that they

415
00:17:55,130 --> 00:17:52,559
used on the J on the v2 so was liquid

416
00:17:57,830 --> 00:17:55,140
oxygen and a form of kerosene which was

417
00:18:00,799 --> 00:17:57,840
an available fuel because it was used in

418
00:18:04,460 --> 00:18:00,809
all of the jet airplanes of the time so

419
00:18:06,289 --> 00:18:04,470
it was very readily available fuel so we

420
00:18:10,310 --> 00:18:06,299
were using that and we had a flat plate

421
00:18:12,740 --> 00:18:10,320
injector where we drilled holes of fuel

422
00:18:15,620 --> 00:18:12,750
and oxidizers of the fuel and oxidizer

423
00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:15,630
wooden pins on each other and then we

424
00:18:19,909 --> 00:18:17,760
would ignite that so we had a flame

425
00:18:22,580 --> 00:18:19,919
front that gonna go back and forth or

426
00:18:24,620 --> 00:18:22,590
twist around the way it so wanted all

427
00:18:26,990 --> 00:18:24,630
right that's wasn't desirable as it

428
00:18:29,210 --> 00:18:27,000
turned out these smart guys that were on

429
00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:29,220
this ad hoc committee figured out well

430
00:18:32,899 --> 00:18:31,440
how come the v2 didn't have that well

431
00:18:35,570 --> 00:18:32,909
they looked at the v2 and part of the

432
00:18:37,310 --> 00:18:35,580
problem was they had a semi sphere for

433
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:37,320
an injector alright and in that

434
00:18:40,730 --> 00:18:38,970
semi-sphere they had all these little

435
00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:40,740
rocket engines that had their own little

436
00:18:45,350 --> 00:18:43,280
injectors and started their ignition

437
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:45,360
well there was no way we were gonna be

438
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:48,450
able to meet that mission to the moon if

439
00:18:53,419 --> 00:18:50,610
we were going to go that route and

440
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:53,429
redesign that whole sphere where the

441
00:18:58,580 --> 00:18:56,130
combustion takes place so someone said

442
00:19:01,580 --> 00:18:58,590
well I wonder if we could put baffles in

443
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:01,590
there just walls that would prevent this

444
00:19:04,970 --> 00:19:03,330
oscillation from going back and forth

445
00:19:07,580 --> 00:19:04,980
and I said you know let's give that a

446
00:19:09,919 --> 00:19:07,590
try so they started looking at different

447
00:19:11,630 --> 00:19:09,929
designs of baffles that they could use

448
00:19:13,340 --> 00:19:11,640
and sure enough they came up with a

449
00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:13,350
configuration that seemed to work pretty

450
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:15,840
well and then the next question was well

451
00:19:20,090 --> 00:19:17,370
it worked this time would work the next

452
00:19:21,770 --> 00:19:20,100
time someone said well you know maybe we

453
00:19:24,260 --> 00:19:21,780
can perturb a tin and force it to go

454
00:19:26,779 --> 00:19:24,270
unstable and see whether those fences

455
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:26,789
we've put in their memory rates the the

456
00:19:31,549 --> 00:19:28,770
instability so they came up with a

457
00:19:35,390 --> 00:19:31,559
copper baffle configuration of about 13

458
00:19:37,669 --> 00:19:35,400
compartments where fuel and oxidizer

459
00:19:40,250 --> 00:19:37,679
would mix and burn sure enough that

460
00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:40,260
seemed to stop any of the oscillations

461
00:19:44,810 --> 00:19:43,110
and then the next question was yeah but

462
00:19:47,779 --> 00:19:44,820
what happened on the hundredth test if

463
00:19:50,090 --> 00:19:47,789
it suddenly goes unstable so we had to

464
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:50,100
figure out well how can we drive the

465
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:52,250
thing deliberately unstable and see

466
00:19:56,020 --> 00:19:54,530
would attenuate so we had a little bomb

467
00:19:58,540 --> 00:19:56,030
that we put we screwed right in the

468
00:20:01,240 --> 00:19:58,550
center of the injector and as soon as we

469
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:01,250
ignited the rocket engine we ignited the

470
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:03,490
bomb that would go off it would initiate

471
00:20:11,110 --> 00:20:06,170
instability but the baffles immediately

472
00:20:12,250 --> 00:20:11,120
dampened it out ok so so that's how we

473
00:20:15,070 --> 00:20:12,260
solve that problem

474
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:15,080
however you know it always came time to

475
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:17,930
stand up to top management when you were

476
00:20:22,420 --> 00:20:20,210
ready to fly a man on it to tell him

477
00:20:24,820 --> 00:20:22,430
what testing you've done what issues you

478
00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:24,830
had and what concerns you might have at

479
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:25,280
this time

480
00:20:31,390 --> 00:20:30,050
well I painted a rosy picture and as I

481
00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:31,400
was painting that rosy picture by the

482
00:20:35,290 --> 00:20:33,200
way the astronauts were in the room at

483
00:20:36,580 --> 00:20:35,300
the time as I was painting that rosy

484
00:20:41,140 --> 00:20:36,590
picture that yeah we've done a lot of

485
00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:41,150
testing and things look good I said

486
00:20:46,090 --> 00:20:43,310
however you know we've tested this thing

487
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:46,100
several hundred times with a bomb and it

488
00:20:50,860 --> 00:20:48,170
10.you weights every time will it still

489
00:20:53,380 --> 00:20:50,870
work on the 700th in the first test when

490
00:20:55,990 --> 00:20:53,390
we fly I can't say that for sure you

491
00:20:58,240 --> 00:20:56,000
know and I said but what we're pretty

492
00:20:59,650 --> 00:20:58,250
sure and we've got a lot of confidence

493
00:21:03,040 --> 00:20:59,660
because of the amount of testing we did

494
00:21:06,700 --> 00:21:03,050
where we deliberately bombed the engine

495
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:06,710
into instabilities so everything went

496
00:21:10,390 --> 00:21:08,210
well and the meeting was over and we

497
00:21:12,430 --> 00:21:10,400
were breaking out for lunch and one of

498
00:21:14,290 --> 00:21:12,440
the astronauts came over to me put his

499
00:21:16,540 --> 00:21:14,300
arm around my shoulder and he said Sonny

500
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:16,550
says you know we know that you guys have

501
00:21:21,550 --> 00:21:18,770
done everything you humanly could do on

502
00:21:22,930 --> 00:21:21,560
this program we're ready to fly and

503
00:21:28,890 --> 00:21:22,940
don't worry about it

504
00:21:34,110 --> 00:21:31,860
that the f1 engine never had a flight

505
00:21:37,049 --> 00:21:34,120
failure of any type was a failure a

506
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:37,059
double failure of the j2 engine on one

507
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:40,960
of our flights was a test flight and

508
00:21:46,049 --> 00:21:42,610
what it was is that we have five

509
00:21:48,540 --> 00:21:46,059
j2 engines in this in the s2 stage all

510
00:21:50,790 --> 00:21:48,550
right which is the second stage we drop

511
00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:50,800
off the first stage with the f1 engines

512
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:52,960
and it dumps into the Atlantic Ocean on

513
00:21:58,020 --> 00:21:55,690
flight and the second stage lights up

514
00:21:59,850 --> 00:21:58,030
with five J two engines well there's a

515
00:22:01,740 --> 00:21:59,860
difference in the j2 engine and the f1

516
00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:01,750
and that they use different combination

517
00:22:06,630 --> 00:22:04,030
of fuel it uses liquid oxygen and liquid

518
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:06,640
hydrogen not kerosene like we did in

519
00:22:13,740 --> 00:22:08,970
ours liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen

520
00:22:17,370 --> 00:22:13,750
and it burns beautifully and in fact the

521
00:22:19,710 --> 00:22:17,380
output of that is it's none toxic it's

522
00:22:22,110 --> 00:22:19,720
nothing but steam it's hydrogen and

523
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:22,120
oxygen produce water so it comes out as

524
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:24,130
hot steam and that gives us our

525
00:22:28,890 --> 00:22:26,170
propulsion and then that's a great

526
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:28,900
design from that standpoint the nature

527
00:22:33,090 --> 00:22:30,610
of the failure that they had was one of

528
00:22:36,150 --> 00:22:33,100
those five engines indicated to the

529
00:22:39,810 --> 00:22:36,160
operator at Houston who was monitoring

530
00:22:42,330 --> 00:22:39,820
the flight in the control room and he

531
00:22:46,380 --> 00:22:42,340
saw one of the engines it was exhibiting

532
00:22:48,810 --> 00:22:46,390
some heat fire and they were concerned

533
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:48,820
that they might have an in a major blow

534
00:22:55,710 --> 00:22:50,650
with it so they gave a cutoff to the

535
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:55,720
engine unbeknownst to us at the time it

536
00:23:02,250 --> 00:22:59,440
was miswired in the instrument unit of

537
00:23:04,140 --> 00:23:02,260
the Apollo program and it gave a cutoff

538
00:23:07,950 --> 00:23:04,150
to a good engine instead of the one that

539
00:23:10,290 --> 00:23:07,960
was the on fire so now we had one engine

540
00:23:12,510 --> 00:23:10,300
that we had cut off another engine that

541
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:12,520
we were afraid was going to blow up

542
00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:15,010
which it didn't it shut itself off it

543
00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:17,200
was out of the atmosphere and apparently

544
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:19,510
the fire extinguishers extinguished

545
00:23:24,660 --> 00:23:22,170
itself okay which was fortunate for us

546
00:23:28,169 --> 00:23:24,670
well the next stage is the third stage

547
00:23:29,940 --> 00:23:28,179
called the s4b and it has a single one

548
00:23:32,910 --> 00:23:29,950
of those same type of engines who had a

549
00:23:36,060 --> 00:23:32,920
single j2 engine in its function is to

550
00:23:36,990 --> 00:23:36,070
circularize the orbit of the payload

551
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:37,000
that we're going to send to the moon

552
00:23:42,330 --> 00:23:40,240
around the earth okay so once they know

553
00:23:43,380 --> 00:23:42,340
the position exactly that they wanted to

554
00:23:45,410 --> 00:23:43,390
refire that

555
00:23:47,910 --> 00:23:45,420
to send it on a trajectory to the moon

556
00:23:48,539 --> 00:23:47,920
they gave the command to refire the

557
00:23:51,419 --> 00:23:48,549
engine

558
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:51,429
it didn't refire so we would not have

559
00:23:55,230 --> 00:23:52,690
been able to go to the moon with that

560
00:23:56,910 --> 00:23:55,240
although the re-entry would have been

561
00:23:59,250 --> 00:23:56,920
safe for the astronauts and that sort of

562
00:24:02,130 --> 00:23:59,260
thing but nevertheless it was double

563
00:24:03,900 --> 00:24:02,140
failure at that same engine so I'm

564
00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:03,910
coming off the f1 engine with all this

565
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:06,400
great stuff that was happening in von

566
00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:08,290
Browns office calls and says you know

567
00:24:13,710 --> 00:24:11,200
we've had a major double failure of that

568
00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:13,720
engine we need someone with experience

569
00:24:20,669 --> 00:24:17,110
to pick up and help solve that problem

570
00:24:23,340 --> 00:24:20,679
and manage the program and that was an

571
00:24:26,159 --> 00:24:23,350
interesting development of testing and

572
00:24:31,020 --> 00:24:26,169
that sort of thing we were taking movies

573
00:24:33,230 --> 00:24:31,030
of firing that engine and seeing what we

574
00:24:36,990 --> 00:24:33,240
could observe just from the movies and

575
00:24:41,070 --> 00:24:37,000
one of the engineers noticed that one of

576
00:24:44,549 --> 00:24:41,080
the lines that goes into the little

577
00:24:47,130 --> 00:24:44,559
rocket motor on board that drives the

578
00:24:48,830 --> 00:24:47,140
turbopump machinery all right that

579
00:24:50,820 --> 00:24:48,840
drives that propellants to high-pressure

580
00:24:54,270 --> 00:24:50,830
before they go into the thrust chamber

581
00:24:56,039 --> 00:24:54,280
for burning well that little rocket

582
00:25:00,930 --> 00:24:56,049
engine we have there that provides that

583
00:25:04,140 --> 00:25:00,940
energy to turn that turbo machinery they

584
00:25:07,409 --> 00:25:04,150
saw some evidence of liquid dropping off

585
00:25:10,590 --> 00:25:07,419
the liquid hydrogen line and the liquid

586
00:25:14,220 --> 00:25:10,600
hydrogen temperature is so cold that air

587
00:25:16,740 --> 00:25:14,230
around that it was a braided hose air

588
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:16,750
around that braided hose would begin to

589
00:25:23,159 --> 00:25:20,410
solidify or actually they saw a lot of

590
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:23,169
liquid dropping off from the braided

591
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:25,690
hose in the movies and that's when the

592
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:28,090
light bulb came on that hey this is a

593
00:25:32,490 --> 00:25:30,010
different atmosphere when they're out in

594
00:25:34,919 --> 00:25:32,500
space there is no atmosphere there is

595
00:25:38,130 --> 00:25:34,929
nothing that is producing ice on that on

596
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:38,140
that hose or a liquid that would dampen

597
00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:40,570
a vibration so it vibrates differently

598
00:25:45,630 --> 00:25:43,510
okay so they changed the design and that

599
00:25:48,390 --> 00:25:45,640
sort of thing and solve that problem and

600
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:48,400
sure enough that's what it was something

601
00:25:51,659 --> 00:25:51,010
as simple as that but it almost cost us

602
00:25:54,450 --> 00:25:51,669
a mission

603
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:54,460
why von Braun's theory was he got a test

604
00:25:58,860 --> 00:25:56,170
test test test all the time

605
00:26:00,510 --> 00:25:58,870
so if you're gonna do something for ten

606
00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:00,520
times like a valve operated for ten

607
00:26:03,180 --> 00:26:00,910
times

608
00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:03,190
prove it on the ground by operating it

609
00:26:06,990 --> 00:26:04,960
to ten thousand times that it's not

610
00:26:14,020 --> 00:26:07,000
gonna fall apart on you all right that

611
00:26:18,700 --> 00:26:15,910
I was in bed watching it on my

612
00:26:20,530 --> 00:26:18,710
black-and-white TV when it happened now

613
00:26:24,340 --> 00:26:20,540
I saw the launch I was down for that

614
00:26:26,410 --> 00:26:24,350
just as a spectator but then I drove and

615
00:26:28,270 --> 00:26:26,420
came back on home and by the time they

616
00:26:30,490 --> 00:26:28,280
got to the mood and then I could see the

617
00:26:33,940 --> 00:26:30,500
landing and it was just such a wonderful

618
00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:33,950
feeling just wonderful relief so happy

619
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:36,110
for those astronauts that we now saw

620
00:26:43,860 --> 00:26:38,210
them alive walking on the moon and now

621
00:26:49,410 --> 00:26:46,080
while all of this was going on all this

622
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:49,420
wonderful spectacular stuff I guess

623
00:26:56,940 --> 00:26:51,810
there was some engineers somewhere in

624
00:26:58,710 --> 00:26:56,950
advanced design that said you know the

625
00:27:01,200 --> 00:26:58,720
astronauts are going to experience some

626
00:27:03,270 --> 00:27:01,210
tough walking on the moon because

627
00:27:04,980 --> 00:27:03,280
they're in a balloon where they've got

628
00:27:08,190 --> 00:27:04,990
to physically move the parts of that

629
00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:08,200
balloon in order to even walk and they

630
00:27:14,190 --> 00:27:11,710
would get hot perspire oxygen was

631
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:14,200
critical they had to have radio gear on

632
00:27:18,270 --> 00:27:16,090
and they're walking around on earth an

633
00:27:20,580 --> 00:27:18,280
astronaut would weigh about 800 pounds

634
00:27:23,190 --> 00:27:20,590
with all of his equipment you know he

635
00:27:25,530 --> 00:27:23,200
couldn't walk on earth he just be rigid

636
00:27:28,650 --> 00:27:25,540
in his suit type of thing if it was

637
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:28,660
pressurized okay so on the moon here it

638
00:27:32,730 --> 00:27:30,370
is pressurized yeah he doesn't weigh

639
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:32,740
that much but nevertheless it's like

640
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:36,130
trying to take that weeny balloon and

641
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:38,770
bending it it doesn't Bend easily and

642
00:27:42,030 --> 00:27:40,210
he's got one leg in one part of that

643
00:27:44,250 --> 00:27:42,040
balloon another leg and the other in the

644
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:44,260
arms and he's trying to move so he

645
00:27:48,660 --> 00:27:46,690
wasn't going very far as the message and

646
00:27:50,070 --> 00:27:48,670
we didn't realize that until we were

647
00:27:52,710 --> 00:27:50,080
fairly late in the development of

648
00:27:56,310 --> 00:27:52,720
vehicle someone finally came up with the

649
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:56,320
idea that well maybe we need to change

650
00:28:01,020 --> 00:27:57,610
things a little bit and give them

651
00:28:03,330 --> 00:28:01,030
vehicle to get along with and so they

652
00:28:05,790 --> 00:28:03,340
had been doing some early design work in

653
00:28:07,410 --> 00:28:05,800
our preliminary design area some of the

654
00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:07,420
contractors have been doing some special

655
00:28:12,330 --> 00:28:09,400
studies in that area

656
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:12,340
Bendix in particular Grumman had been

657
00:28:20,310 --> 00:28:16,810
looking at something but we decided you

658
00:28:22,670 --> 00:28:20,320
know they need a car I mean they looked

659
00:28:25,980 --> 00:28:22,680
at pogo sticks for the yes or no that's

660
00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:25,990
and they looked at all sorts of

661
00:28:30,570 --> 00:28:28,110
contraptions to help them and

662
00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:30,580
fortunately they were right that

663
00:28:34,830 --> 00:28:32,080
astronaut would not be able to walk very

664
00:28:35,810 --> 00:28:34,840
far we found that out immediately on

665
00:28:39,030 --> 00:28:35,820
Apollo 11

666
00:28:44,030 --> 00:28:39,040
you know that Neil Neil Armstrong didn't

667
00:28:46,330 --> 00:28:44,040
go very far and he was totally exhausted

668
00:28:53,979 --> 00:28:46,340
so

669
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:53,989
might be able to use fold up into a

670
00:28:58,479 --> 00:28:56,450
small package and put it on board and

671
00:29:01,089 --> 00:28:58,489
have them deploy it on the moon and

672
00:29:04,539 --> 00:29:01,099
drive for us Here I am and on the j2

673
00:29:07,810 --> 00:29:04,549
program I'm wrapping that up when the

674
00:29:10,899 --> 00:29:07,820
thoughts about coming up with a car for

675
00:29:13,839 --> 00:29:10,909
the astronauts was coming along here we

676
00:29:16,479 --> 00:29:13,849
had a car now that we had to somehow or

677
00:29:19,089 --> 00:29:16,489
other go out and get some bids on hadn't

678
00:29:23,409 --> 00:29:19,099
been to the moon yet all right so the

679
00:29:26,409 --> 00:29:23,419
specifications were quite if he would at

680
00:29:28,659 --> 00:29:26,419
best we didn't know exactly what what

681
00:29:30,029 --> 00:29:28,669
that car had to do so we gave the

682
00:29:32,409 --> 00:29:30,039
contract there's some very broad

683
00:29:35,969 --> 00:29:32,419
guidelines for specifications like it

684
00:29:38,469 --> 00:29:35,979
had to be stable on a 45-degree slope

685
00:29:41,979 --> 00:29:38,479
not only going up but but as well as

686
00:29:44,349 --> 00:29:41,989
downhill in sideways okay so that drove

687
00:29:46,619 --> 00:29:44,359
them into a big a big car design not a

688
00:29:49,659 --> 00:29:46,629
little one because they needed the wide

689
00:29:52,919 --> 00:29:49,669
expanse of the car to keep from hitting

690
00:29:55,450 --> 00:29:52,929
a rock or a crater and tipping over

691
00:29:57,209 --> 00:29:55,460
that's what we were faced with and we

692
00:30:00,700 --> 00:29:57,219
went out for bids with the contractors

693
00:30:03,129 --> 00:30:00,710
we had not yet landed on the moon and we

694
00:30:06,430 --> 00:30:03,139
selected a contractor we landed on the

695
00:30:09,940 --> 00:30:06,440
moon in July as I remember xx we were

696
00:30:13,239 --> 00:30:09,950
given the go-ahead before that time we

697
00:30:16,629 --> 00:30:13,249
finally picked the contractor decide the

698
00:30:19,629 --> 00:30:16,639
contract on the 1st of November and we

699
00:30:22,749 --> 00:30:19,639
had only 17 and a half months to design

700
00:30:25,149 --> 00:30:22,759
it test it build it and deliver flight

701
00:30:28,599 --> 00:30:25,159
hardware to the Cape so we went out for

702
00:30:30,029 --> 00:30:28,609
bid and lo and behold the Boeing teamed

703
00:30:33,459 --> 00:30:30,039
up with General Motors and General

704
00:30:37,269 --> 00:30:33,469
Motors was a subcontractor to Boeing on

705
00:30:39,909 --> 00:30:37,279
it and they got the bid they wanted they

706
00:30:43,060 --> 00:30:39,919
had the lowest cost the problem was

707
00:30:44,919 --> 00:30:43,070
there that the designs that our people

708
00:30:47,229 --> 00:30:44,929
in the lab were running and they were

709
00:30:49,779 --> 00:30:47,239
running cost estimates on it and they

710
00:30:52,239 --> 00:30:49,789
they looked like to them that it was

711
00:30:54,500 --> 00:30:52,249
gonna cost about 40 million dollars to

712
00:30:57,530 --> 00:30:54,510
develop and build that hardware

713
00:31:01,240 --> 00:30:57,540
we were getting bids in from the guy who

714
00:31:03,650 --> 00:31:01,250
knew the most on it over 26 million and

715
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:03,660
the guy who knew the least which was the

716
00:31:10,430 --> 00:31:08,250
Boeing General Motors combination they

717
00:31:12,830 --> 00:31:10,440
bid the thing the lowest of all at

718
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:12,840
nineteen point six million I think it

719
00:31:18,740 --> 00:31:15,570
was so we were concerned about the fact

720
00:31:20,390 --> 00:31:18,750
that we had a low bid in there well I

721
00:31:22,669 --> 00:31:20,400
took that up to NASA headquarters when

722
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:22,679
we decided who ought to possibly get

723
00:31:27,730 --> 00:31:24,570
this thing with our recommendations and

724
00:31:31,039 --> 00:31:27,740
the question came up because of the cost

725
00:31:34,610 --> 00:31:31,049
you think that Boeing would not be able

726
00:31:35,690 --> 00:31:34,620
to do the job and my comment was sure

727
00:31:38,060 --> 00:31:35,700
they'll be able to do it

728
00:31:41,270 --> 00:31:38,070
I just don't have as much confidence in

729
00:31:44,570 --> 00:31:41,280
their price as I do with some of the

730
00:31:45,830 --> 00:31:44,580
others and I said well if they can do

731
00:31:47,930 --> 00:31:45,840
the job let's give it to him

732
00:31:49,940 --> 00:31:47,940
well in the meantime sunny mariah has

733
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:49,950
stuck with the job of negotiating a

734
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:52,290
contract with a contractor that I was

735
00:31:58,940 --> 00:31:55,130
concerned was gonna overrun severely and

736
00:32:01,610 --> 00:31:58,950
and with a specification that we didn't

737
00:32:03,740 --> 00:32:01,620
know and he very much about we couldn't

738
00:32:05,659 --> 00:32:03,750
give him the details that we wanted to

739
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:05,669
give him so we gave him very general

740
00:32:11,299 --> 00:32:08,610
details so now that question is you know

741
00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:11,309
if he begins to overrun well we're gonna

742
00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:13,710
get ourselves out of this mess we still

743
00:32:18,650 --> 00:32:15,600
didn't know the conditions on the

744
00:32:21,260 --> 00:32:18,660
surface we were just getting the first

745
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:21,270
results back from Apollo 11 so NASA

746
00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:23,490
decided they were going to incentivize

747
00:32:27,980 --> 00:32:25,620
all of our contracts that was the big

748
00:32:30,830 --> 00:32:27,990
push incentivize all the big contracts

749
00:32:33,820 --> 00:32:30,840
so we were locked into going in with an

750
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:33,830
incentive contract we finally picked

751
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:36,570
telling them okay look if this program

752
00:32:43,419 --> 00:32:39,690
overruns 100 percent from what you you

753
00:32:48,220 --> 00:32:43,429
know you proposed you get zero fee okay

754
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:48,230
and if you don't do deliver on time and

755
00:32:53,090 --> 00:32:51,600
the program gets cancelled because we

756
00:32:55,700 --> 00:32:53,100
were already told by the NASA

757
00:32:57,590 --> 00:32:55,710
Administrator that if we're not ready

758
00:32:59,810 --> 00:32:57,600
with that in flight hardware at the Cape

759
00:33:03,780 --> 00:32:59,820
seventeen and a half months from go

760
00:33:06,580 --> 00:33:03,790
ahead that they go without us without a

761
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:06,590
so we said okay if you missed that

762
00:33:11,950 --> 00:33:09,770
delivery the first one I forget whether

763
00:33:14,350 --> 00:33:11,960
we told him they'd get a third off or

764
00:33:16,540 --> 00:33:14,360
what it was but we would penalize him a

765
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:16,550
significant amount type of thing but it

766
00:33:20,770 --> 00:33:18,050
was another way for them to earn little

767
00:33:22,870 --> 00:33:20,780
of No Fee and then the third area was

768
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:22,880
what happens if it technically doesn't

769
00:33:26,980 --> 00:33:25,250
do the job you know you can't climb the

770
00:33:29,170 --> 00:33:26,990
slope you can't get over there because

771
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:29,180
the temperatures are wrong it hits a

772
00:33:34,570 --> 00:33:31,370
pothole or rock it had to go over Rock

773
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:34,580
one foot high at high set top speed of a

774
00:33:40,540 --> 00:33:36,410
vehicle which was not very fast by the

775
00:33:43,090 --> 00:33:40,550
way like at 7 miles an hour all right

776
00:33:45,340 --> 00:33:43,100
but nevertheless you try going over a

777
00:33:48,460 --> 00:33:45,350
one foot obstacle with your car it's at

778
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:48,470
7 miles an hour it's not an easy feat we

779
00:33:50,050 --> 00:33:49,610
have to be able to do that in this

780
00:33:53,260 --> 00:33:50,060
vehicle

781
00:33:56,050 --> 00:33:53,270
and it had had to be able to go into a

782
00:33:59,500 --> 00:33:56,060
crater that was 2 feet in diameter one

783
00:34:01,750 --> 00:33:59,510
foot deep and not tip over at the top

784
00:34:03,670 --> 00:34:01,760
speed had to be able to be at that top

785
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:03,680
speed on the side of the mountain we

786
00:34:07,810 --> 00:34:05,810
negotiated that contract and we were all

787
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:07,820
pretty proud there well we protected the

788
00:34:11,860 --> 00:34:10,370
government's interest somehow well

789
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:11,870
everything was going fine except about

790
00:34:17,110 --> 00:34:14,450
three months into the program my team of

791
00:34:19,149 --> 00:34:17,120
guys who are watching the costs said you

792
00:34:21,340 --> 00:34:19,159
know they're not getting the the

793
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:21,350
milestones accomplished that they said

794
00:34:24,850 --> 00:34:23,210
they would have done by now but they've

795
00:34:29,020 --> 00:34:24,860
spent the money that would have been

796
00:34:32,740 --> 00:34:29,030
spent so they began raising the red flag

797
00:34:35,649 --> 00:34:32,750
to me and I immediately raised it to my

798
00:34:37,740 --> 00:34:35,659
management well the guy up at

799
00:34:42,700 --> 00:34:37,750
headquarters his name was Rocco patron

800
00:34:44,409 --> 00:34:42,710
hurried about possible overrun and there

801
00:34:46,389 --> 00:34:44,419
was a congressional investigation that

802
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:46,399
was kicked off to find out why this

803
00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:50,570
program might be in a 100% overrun all

804
00:34:54,669 --> 00:34:52,310
right and Rocco patron got in the middle

805
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:54,679
of that and he squealed on the telephone

806
00:35:01,000 --> 00:34:57,050
to me what was going on and I figure my

807
00:35:03,070 --> 00:35:01,010
job was over you know well he went to

808
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:03,080
Congress apparently and reported to the

809
00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:06,250
committee's I heard nothing from nothing

810
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:08,480
and I know what was going on because

811
00:35:13,810 --> 00:35:11,210
well I expected the GAO team to be down

812
00:35:14,530 --> 00:35:13,820
in my office by the month of September

813
00:35:15,610 --> 00:35:14,540
and

814
00:35:18,070 --> 00:35:15,620
weren't there they didn't communicate

815
00:35:18,690 --> 00:35:18,080
with me or anything and I was still on

816
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:18,700
the job

817
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:22,250
so I finally called his Bracco's chief

818
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:24,650
engineer fella by the name of Ben mill

819
00:35:29,500 --> 00:35:27,170
Witzke wonderful technically oriented

820
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:29,510
guy who stayed in the program from day

821
00:35:35,940 --> 00:35:32,090
one he went to all my meetings came to

822
00:35:38,380 --> 00:35:35,950
all of my reviews so he was very well

823
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:38,390
into the program integrated into it he

824
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:40,730
knew what was going on and I said Ben I

825
00:35:46,150 --> 00:35:43,130
haven't heard from Rocko what's happened

826
00:35:48,850 --> 00:35:46,160
the GAO coming a win he says oh didn't

827
00:35:50,890 --> 00:35:48,860
he call you and I said no yeah I said

828
00:35:53,530 --> 00:35:50,900
what happened is he went to Congress and

829
00:35:56,020 --> 00:35:53,540
the congressional staffers said they

830
00:35:58,030 --> 00:35:56,030
were amazed at how well that thing was

831
00:36:00,490 --> 00:35:58,040
organized in terms of protecting the

832
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:00,500
government's interests they turned the

833
00:36:06,820 --> 00:36:03,890
GAO off off the GAO was turned off by

834
00:36:13,310 --> 00:36:06,830
the congressional staffers okay never

835
00:36:19,790 --> 00:36:16,600
he was probably the most incredible

836
00:36:21,940 --> 00:36:19,800
positive manager that I have ever seen

837
00:36:25,220 --> 00:36:21,950
in my life I worked for in my life

838
00:36:27,860 --> 00:36:25,230
people were his product not the hardware

839
00:36:29,030 --> 00:36:27,870
as much as the people I went on a tour

840
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:29,040
with one Brown of one of the

841
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:30,960
laboratories structures and propulsion

842
00:36:37,130 --> 00:36:33,930
and I think a lab director was with us

843
00:36:39,260 --> 00:36:37,140
myself and my immediate boss and he

844
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:39,270
would just drop in on his laboratories

845
00:36:45,020 --> 00:36:41,610
he had nine labs he just dropped in and

846
00:36:46,670 --> 00:36:45,030
asked the manager the lab director how

847
00:36:47,780 --> 00:36:46,680
about taking me around so let's see what

848
00:36:49,820 --> 00:36:47,790
you all doing here

849
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:49,830
so he was walking down the hall and he

850
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:52,170
peered into one of the rooms and he saw

851
00:36:56,720 --> 00:36:54,480
this single the young guy on a drafting

852
00:36:58,790 --> 00:36:56,730
board drawing on something he just

853
00:37:01,670 --> 00:36:58,800
walked in and he said hi I'm Reina von

854
00:37:03,500 --> 00:37:01,680
Braun and he says who are you and kid

855
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:03,510
introduced himself he was an intern you

856
00:37:08,060 --> 00:37:06,090
know he wasn't even an employee and he

857
00:37:09,950 --> 00:37:08,070
was working on he was drafting something

858
00:37:14,210 --> 00:37:09,960
so what he doing he says well I'm

859
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:14,220
drafting a a fairing to put on a a line

860
00:37:20,450 --> 00:37:16,410
that comes out of the Redstone event

861
00:37:22,100 --> 00:37:20,460
line of some type and and I got this eye

862
00:37:24,140 --> 00:37:22,110
arrow dynamic fairing that I'm trying to

863
00:37:26,150 --> 00:37:24,150
design on it and von Braun looked at it

864
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:26,160
and says oh he says you know what that

865
00:37:30,590 --> 00:37:28,890
line is and the kids said no and he said

866
00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:30,600
and explained to him he knew the

867
00:37:34,070 --> 00:37:31,920
hardware well enough that he knew what

868
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:34,080
that vent line was and how important it

869
00:37:40,220 --> 00:37:36,450
was and he explained this to this young

870
00:37:41,930 --> 00:37:40,230
engineer to be and then when he was

871
00:37:44,390 --> 00:37:41,940
through explaining it he says you know

872
00:37:45,860 --> 00:37:44,400
let me see if I can improve a little bit

873
00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:45,870
on the curves that you got in this thing

874
00:37:49,820 --> 00:37:47,760
from the little knowledge I have of

875
00:37:51,290 --> 00:37:49,830
aerodynamics he says I think if you

876
00:37:53,810 --> 00:37:51,300
change the design a little bit in this

877
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:53,820
area and he sat down on the kid bench

878
00:37:57,050 --> 00:37:55,410
right next to him and he started

879
00:37:58,880 --> 00:37:57,060
redesigning it for him a little bit to

880
00:38:00,020 --> 00:37:58,890
improve it and he says I think that

881
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:00,030
would work a little better what do you

882
00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:03,330
think kids yeah that looks good and he

883
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:05,730
left now what do you think is in the

884
00:38:12,110 --> 00:38:08,370
mind of that young man having met the

885
00:38:14,330 --> 00:38:12,120
giant of all engineers and in the space

886
00:38:16,370 --> 00:38:14,340
program to have sat down with him and

887
00:38:20,670 --> 00:38:16,380
personally given him a little bit of a

888
00:38:23,950 --> 00:38:20,680
of an insight just great

889
00:38:28,269 --> 00:38:23,960
yes great the first man I went to work

890
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:28,279
for I got involved in the in the

891
00:38:33,490 --> 00:38:31,130
actuator on the redstone and it was in

892
00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:33,500
an office that was headed by a fella by

893
00:38:38,650 --> 00:38:36,910
the name of Curt Linda

894
00:38:41,829 --> 00:38:38,660
apparently he was a doggone good

895
00:38:44,170 --> 00:38:41,839
engineer and when Hitler when von Braun

896
00:38:47,079 --> 00:38:44,180
decided who he was gonna take out with

897
00:38:49,750 --> 00:38:47,089
him he picked Kurt to go with him so he

898
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:49,760
basically saved Kurt's life because the

899
00:38:54,940 --> 00:38:52,730
Russians over ran Peenemunde a but Kirk

900
00:38:58,029 --> 00:38:54,950
got into this country so he was a very

901
00:39:00,880 --> 00:38:58,039
devoted individual to von Braun well

902
00:39:02,829 --> 00:39:00,890
Kirk gets to have a heart attack that

903
00:39:06,190 --> 00:39:02,839
almost took him out and I was in the

904
00:39:08,529 --> 00:39:06,200
office when Kurt came back after his

905
00:39:09,130 --> 00:39:08,539
heart attack and he's getting ready to

906
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:09,140
work again

907
00:39:14,349 --> 00:39:11,890
because we had this problem with this

908
00:39:18,039 --> 00:39:14,359
operation up in New York that I was

909
00:39:20,259 --> 00:39:18,049
doing liaison work with and von Braun

910
00:39:22,529 --> 00:39:20,269
sat down with Kurt and he said Kurt I've

911
00:39:26,710 --> 00:39:22,539
made arrangements to get you a full

912
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:26,720
medical retirement okay and I want you

913
00:39:32,529 --> 00:39:28,970
to go ahead and take it we don't need

914
00:39:35,470 --> 00:39:32,539
you dropping dead on the job and Kurt

915
00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:35,480
listened and he said Verna he says no I

916
00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:40,250
will not leave you his you've saved my

917
00:39:45,549 --> 00:39:43,609
life once before he says I want to die

918
00:39:49,029 --> 00:39:45,559
on the job if I have to working for you

919
00:39:52,420 --> 00:39:49,039
and if you I'm Brown was arguing with

920
00:39:54,870 --> 00:39:52,430
him no I want to stay I want to help the

921
00:39:57,329 --> 00:39:54,880
best I can

922
00:40:01,059 --> 00:39:57,339
well Kurt died two or three years later

923
00:40:03,069 --> 00:40:01,069
but he died at home but he didn't retire

924
00:40:05,859 --> 00:40:03,079
he worked von Braun tore up the

925
00:40:08,799 --> 00:40:05,869
paperwork and let him stay on Dida growl

926
00:40:10,839 --> 00:40:08,809
was head of our control quality control

927
00:40:13,210 --> 00:40:10,849
laboratory okay he was one of the

928
00:40:18,999 --> 00:40:13,220
Germans that came over with von Braun

929
00:40:21,370 --> 00:40:19,009
and the army was doing hydrogen bomb

930
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:21,380
testing at Kwajalein and out in the

931
00:40:26,980 --> 00:40:24,170
Pacific there and they came to NASA if

932
00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:26,990
we had anyone who had a good experience

933
00:40:32,849 --> 00:40:29,680
in quality control okay

934
00:40:35,819 --> 00:40:32,859
so von braun offered up dieter ground to

935
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:35,829
help so the girl had an assignment went

936
00:40:42,809 --> 00:40:38,650
to Quadra Lane and did his thing in in

937
00:40:46,589 --> 00:40:42,819
the quality control area on the bomb and

938
00:40:49,380 --> 00:40:46,599
when he came back he was asked to give

939
00:40:51,750 --> 00:40:49,390
us a rundown as to generally you know

940
00:40:53,460 --> 00:40:51,760
what his experiences were and what did

941
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:53,470
he do and that sort of thing without

942
00:40:57,510 --> 00:40:56,170
getting into sensitive areas dieter got

943
00:40:58,950 --> 00:40:57,520
up then he was and I happened to be in

944
00:41:01,410 --> 00:40:58,960
the meeting for this and it really

945
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:01,420
impressed me because he he had trouble

946
00:41:05,490 --> 00:41:03,130
with the English language which was

947
00:41:08,010 --> 00:41:05,500
another story too was von Braun insisted

948
00:41:10,140 --> 00:41:08,020
that they not speak German if there was

949
00:41:12,510 --> 00:41:10,150
an American in the room that they speak

950
00:41:15,359 --> 00:41:12,520
English so he forced him to speak

951
00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:15,369
English rather than have him communicate

952
00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:16,240
even though they could better

953
00:41:21,029 --> 00:41:18,880
communicate in German with fun Brown he

954
00:41:24,750 --> 00:41:21,039
wouldn't let him do that so he gets into

955
00:41:26,849 --> 00:41:24,760
this in this presentation now and you

956
00:41:28,289 --> 00:41:26,859
could see that he was stumbling a little

957
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:28,299
bit because of the English language

958
00:41:32,819 --> 00:41:30,490
of trying to get his points across and

959
00:41:34,769 --> 00:41:32,829
von Braun instead of embarrassing him

960
00:41:37,289 --> 00:41:34,779
like a later director would have done

961
00:41:38,819 --> 00:41:37,299
okay he says neither wait a minute let

962
00:41:41,130 --> 00:41:38,829
me see if I understand what you're

963
00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:41,140
telling me are you telling me and he

964
00:41:45,450 --> 00:41:42,730
went ahead and gave a summary on this

965
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:45,460
chart of what Dida was trying to say he

966
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:48,010
and when he was done doing that do you

967
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:49,450
say yeah that's what I meant

968
00:42:02,079 --> 00:41:59,800
vacation I was a private pilot and I had

969
00:42:04,990 --> 00:42:02,089
an illinois airplane and my kids hadn't

970
00:42:07,270 --> 00:42:05,000
been on a big vacation or my wife in ten

971
00:42:10,210 --> 00:42:07,280
years I spent seven and a half years

972
00:42:12,460 --> 00:42:10,220
developing the f1 as a manager another

973
00:42:14,109 --> 00:42:12,470
two and a half years on the j2 so I had

974
00:42:16,329 --> 00:42:14,119
ten years that we hadn't had any big

975
00:42:18,250 --> 00:42:16,339
vacation but because I had the use of

976
00:42:20,890 --> 00:42:18,260
the plane I could fly down to the Gulf

977
00:42:22,780 --> 00:42:20,900
on a weekend get a dip in the in the

978
00:42:23,740 --> 00:42:22,790
Gulf come back and be at work on Monday

979
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:23,750
morning okay

980
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:25,970
and we did that for a year or two you

981
00:42:30,359 --> 00:42:27,770
know just one after the others fortunate

982
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:30,369
that I had an airplane I was a

983
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:33,290
commercially rated pilot and I was a

984
00:42:38,170 --> 00:42:36,170
flight instructor and so I could fly my

985
00:42:40,770 --> 00:42:38,180
airplane just about any place I wanted

986
00:42:43,870 --> 00:42:40,780
to it had a thousand mile range and

987
00:42:46,030 --> 00:42:43,880
every Christmas we used to fly it to New

988
00:42:48,069 --> 00:42:46,040
York for the holidays took the whole

989
00:42:50,380 --> 00:42:48,079
family with me and I could get to New

990
00:42:52,270 --> 00:42:50,390
York in five hours in ten minutes from

991
00:42:54,130 --> 00:42:52,280
the time I left the ground here in

992
00:42:55,690 --> 00:42:54,140
Huntsville and I couldn't beat that with

993
00:42:57,430 --> 00:42:55,700
a commercial airline in those days

994
00:42:59,200 --> 00:42:57,440
because I had to go to the land and

995
00:43:02,319 --> 00:42:59,210
change airplanes there was always a

996
00:43:03,940 --> 00:43:02,329
major delay between flights so I

997
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:03,950
actually could get to New York faster in

998
00:43:07,599 --> 00:43:06,170
my own small airplane than if I went

999
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:07,609
through the commercial airline routine

1000
00:43:13,599 --> 00:43:10,250
plus it was cheaper at least

1001
00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:13,609
incrementally so not for the price of

1002
00:43:17,770 --> 00:43:15,710
the airplane and so we used to go up

1003
00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:17,780
there for Christmas all the time I could

1004
00:43:23,079 --> 00:43:19,730
do that and we used to take those summer

1005
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:23,089
vacations two days at a time one day at

1006
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:25,250
a time because I had the plane I can be

1007
00:43:29,020 --> 00:43:27,170
down at the beach we take off at 8

1008
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:29,030
o'clock on a Saturday morning I was in

1009
00:43:32,950 --> 00:43:31,130
the Gulf of Mexico swimming at 11

1010
00:43:37,820 --> 00:43:32,960
o'clock in the morning so it was that

1011
00:43:41,540 --> 00:43:39,770
well I think the legacy of the whole

1012
00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:41,550
space program is that it really has

1013
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:44,250
opened up a whole new venue for mankind

1014
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:47,130
now you know the astronaut said it right

1015
00:43:54,910 --> 00:43:50,370
this is one small step for man one major

1016
00:43:57,650 --> 00:43:54,920
step for mankind paraphrased I guess but

1017
00:43:59,990 --> 00:43:57,660
and I think that is the legacy of this

1018
00:44:03,110 --> 00:44:00,000
whole thing I've been a part of that

1019
00:44:06,530 --> 00:44:03,120
program that has opened up mankind's

1020
00:44:10,550 --> 00:44:06,540
view into the future and the exploration

1021
00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:10,560
for life elsewhere the exploration of

1022
00:44:17,180 --> 00:44:13,920
our whole universe you know the the

1023
00:44:19,700 --> 00:44:17,190
Egyptians I guess in my mind they the

1024
00:44:23,930 --> 00:44:19,710
ancient Egyptians kind of developed the

1025
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:23,940
concept of an afterlife okay that's why

1026
00:44:29,380 --> 00:44:25,650
they built those huge pyramids for the

1027
00:44:33,710 --> 00:44:29,390
for the Pharaohs the Greeks gave us

1028
00:44:35,900 --> 00:44:33,720
philosophy and and the architecture that

1029
00:44:40,190 --> 00:44:35,910
they left with us which is incredible

1030
00:44:43,250 --> 00:44:40,200
and the Romans gave us some of the best

1031
00:44:45,410 --> 00:44:43,260
engineering activities in the world at

1032
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:45,420
the time and so I think we're in the

1033
00:44:49,610 --> 00:44:47,850
next phase now you know the Wright

1034
00:44:51,860 --> 00:44:49,620
brothers and those who were in that

1035
00:44:54,380 --> 00:44:51,870
field at the time they gave us the world

1036
00:44:56,540 --> 00:44:54,390
of aviation which allowed man to fly off

1037
00:44:58,730 --> 00:44:56,550
the ground like the birds and I think

1038
00:45:01,430 --> 00:44:58,740
we've given man the capability in the

1039
00:45:02,750 --> 00:45:01,440
space program now to fly off to the